Curse

Amon Warrior · Nov 15, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

"So, will there ever be an iota of chance for a PvE/PvP split?"

GW2...

Redfeather1975 · Nov 15, 2007, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

making a pve experience enjoyable is not simple though.

plenty of games have been ruined because it was either too hard or too easy, the best games have it dosed correctly and getting that aspect right is no easy feat.

That's true. I'm glad you posted that.
Right now I think PvE is imbalanced and pretty dull.
Areas are either way too easier or they are stupidly hard unless you are using a specific group/profession/build setup. I highly doubt Anet will ever bother rebalancing PvE content after skill updates. The only concern is probably that it's simply doable, not whether it's challenging/balanced enough to be entertaining.

Antheus · Nov 15, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

unless you are using a specific group/profession/build setup

Without meaning various gimmick/holy trinity builds, GW was intended as build oriented.

Areas were designed to require adaptation and build experimentation. Areas with no corpses, areas with lots of casters, only melee, heavy degen, lots of AoE, each requiring different strategy.

But through time, as the skills and skill of players increased in power, the areas became bland. Any class could play with any template. Almost entire game can be completed with nuker and a MM.

Unfortunately, GW never attempted to address these issues, and instead opted for lowering the difficulty across the board, making the game trivially playable with holy trinity, thereby going against the most appealing concept.

But since many/most players are incapable of getting over the concept of low level cap vs. xp=more power, GW, and consequently GW2, are both favoring the majority, where time and power creep allow for zerging of PvE.

GW had a lot going for its concept. But they chose to abandon it. And it's the incompatibility between level-based vs. skills-based gameplay that ruined the PvE, and turned it into the "imbalanced" mess it is today.

Crom The Pale · Nov 15, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

When GW was released the idea behind PvE was that you would only progress through the story once, after completing a mission or quest you would never need to go back and redo it, save to pick up the bonus wich only had an experiance reward attached to it at that time.

Designed to only be conqured once or twice the maps were seen as far to easy for those that returned many many times with different profs and all skills at there disposal. Players were not migrating to PvP as expected but looking for more PvE content. This forced Anet to change thier approach and try to adapt new measures to extend the PvE play. The first move they made was to add Sorrows Furnace and to make several skill adjustments that made PvE more of a challenge.

Keep in mind that both Factions and Nightfall were being worked on at this time, Factions was being coded and Nightfall was being developed on paper. Changes were made to try and please the two evolving groups, PvE and PvP players not to mentions those that did both.

Realizing that the limitations of GW prevented them from fully exploring both PvE and PvP to the extent they had percieved the populas wanted they came up with GW2 and changed the GW:EN chapter into an expantion.

I believe that while GW2 will have both PvP and PvE content there will be a very sharp line dividing them so that both can expand indepently and to the fullest extent possible.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

At the time of release of SF i had the impression that the update had been in the making for a long time (planed from the start) but that Anet simply had not implemented it due to:

1. lack of time

2. To demonstrate their technological knowhow in the updating and adding of large areas, maps, complex dungeons on the fly.

3. and yes new mechanics to extend the pve experience like greens.

It does remain an incredibly rich area with high replayability.

but yeah Crom, we can only hope. well. THEY can only hope, me i've got nothing to lose.

Bryant Again · Nov 15, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

Which is the key issue here: as has been noted (even by yourself!), PvE is fine as it is: so why not restrict the changes...to PvP, where they're actually fixing a problem?

If there is such a balance that requires you to actually have to rethink your build or particular team build: Good. That's what makes Guild Wars fun and challenging, always coming up with new ideas and solutions to new problems. And besides, what's so fun about having to solve the same jigsaw puzzle over and over again?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DDL

ALL these changes do in a PvE environment is..irritate the PvE crowd. They don't fix anything, they just..annoy people. For no reason. So surprisingly: people are annoyed.

No, they don't annoy the "PvE crowd," just you. I am a pure PvEr and you certainly don't represent me. And if they don't fix anything then why are there skill balances in the first place???

That aside, I'll reinstate what I hope they do with GW2: Keep it minimal. ANet have shown themselves to be wholly capable of providing a good product, but it's just gotten way too out of hand with what they've got now. Having to balance so many skills, combinations, professions, TONS of shit can be incredibly difficult. The scales can only hold so much.

So again, I hope they really lower the number of skills in the next game. So far, GW2 sounds like it's going to involve having much more activity than what is currently in GW. Will it be for the best? It's very hard to say: one of GW's biggest appeals is its emphasis on skills/build make up. It sounds like this'll be less so in GW2, seeming like it'll be much more action oriented.

Antheus · Nov 15, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

That aside, I'll reinstate what I hope they do with GW2: Keep it minimal. ANet have shown themselves to be wholly capable of providing a good product, but it's just gotten way too out of hand with what they've got now. Having to balance so many skills, combinations, professions, TONS of shit can be incredibly difficult. The scales can only hold so much.

Shame that minimalistic games don't provide more than a few hours of entertainment.

I find WoW abysmally boring. Every class has exactly the same 10 skills. There's a few dozen filler ones in there, but each class is played by making a macro that presses the buttons in order, 1 - 8. Even in pvp.

Quote:

So far, GW2 sounds like it's going to involve having much more activity than what is currently in GW.

So far it sounds like all activity in GW2 will be exactly the same. Same classes, same skills, same quests, same everything - only the level will provide sense of progression.

Just like every EQ clone out there.

Quote:

seeming like it'll be much more action oriented

Action and MMORPG (something, that GW2 will definitely be) do not mix. *points to dozens of failed action MMORPGs out there, and lack of any successful action MMORPG

MMORPG crowd doesn't want action. GW2 will either be a huge grind fest, or it will fail. It's as easy as that.

And if they don't do that, and prove otherwise, they'll be writing gaming history - literally - and re-inventing the online gaming genre by defining MMORPG 2.0.

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If there is such a balance that requires you to actually have to rethink your build or particular team build: Good. That's what makes Guild Wars fun and challenging, always coming up with new ideas and solutions to new problems. And besides, what's so fun about having to solve the same jigsaw puzzle over and over again?

No, they don't annoy the "PvE crowd," just you. I am a pure PvEr and you certainly don't represent me. And if they don't fix anything then why are there skill balances in the first place???

(...)

So what if the dude wants to play the game the way he want? In what way does that affect you?

I can safely say that pvp induced changes to pve irritates ME and im pretty sure i saw at least one other person mentioning that.

three's a crowd.

they fix stuff thats broken in pvp, because its broken in pvp it does NOT mean its the case in pve. they are different games

lyra_song · Nov 15, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Hey Bryant....That monk is a spy! The mesmer is a spy! ^^;

anyway...it seems nobody did click the link i posted in the first page.

Lyra's solution to the pve/pvp skill problem:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10170019

Ctb · Nov 15, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Shame that minimalistic games don't provide more than a few hours of entertainment.

I find WoW abysmally boring. Every class has exactly the same 10 skills. There's a few dozen filler ones in there, but each class is played by making a macro that presses the buttons in order, 1 - 8. Even in pvp.

WoW is not minimalist. WoW is simplistic, derivative, cliched, and rigid. Not the same thing.

An example of a minimalistic game that can provide hundreds of replays, never the same way twice, is Chess. It has a single board, two players, and a set of very basic rules governing the movement of the pieces. Yet, players are capable of devising complicated strategies that manipulate everything from position and control on the gameboard to the psyche of the opponent.

The problem with making a game like that which appeals to everyone, however, is that people who devote the most time to manipulating the environment and poking at the rules of the gamespace will ultimately always dominate everybody else. The prime example right now is Eve Online. There are a set of rules that govern physics, economics, and law in the game, and then the player is basically kicked out of a spaceport and left to his own machinations. Manipulating the rules is encouraged and it creates a world that, if you put effort into it, is constantly filled with wonderous new discoveries.

However, Eve Online is also dominated primarily by a small group of people who are able to devote the maximum amount of time to manipulating the world around them, and, the simple fact is, if you don't join them, you will never achieve anything significant.

That's a big thing with ANet: everything has to be 'fair'. You can't manipulate the rules to your own unfair advantage because it's all supposed to be a level playing field. Unfortunately, that kind of approach will, ultimately, always result in overly complicated rules as things are hastily patched up when people find ways of unfairly manipulating the environment around them (IWAY, botting/farming, etc.)

Quote:

No, they don't annoy the "PvE crowd," just you.

Yes, sometimes they do. PvP skill balances occasionally break perfectly legitimate PvE builds. That is annoying, and no matter how often you say it isn't, it still is. Useful, fair PvE builds shouldn't be broken because some knob in GvG figured out how to make an unstoppable killing machine that only works against other players. Unfortunately, the game was poorly designed in that respect, and it will never change since rewriting the code at this point would be a waste of time.

Painbringer · Nov 15, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

I don’t know about two different games maybe two different skill sets PVP tagged skills then PVE tagged skills (Same skills but different effects Nerfed PVP ones)

quickmonty · Nov 15, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keithark

There already is a split.... PvP players have split to find other games and PvE players are splitting to go to ebay and get some gold since farming is dead

Where did those 'facts' come from? Must have pulled them out of your butt.

To answer the OP ..... not a chance. It's been discussed before (and posts were promptly closed). GW has always tried to be everything to everyone, and in that aspect it totally fails. I look at nerfs and groan (to myself) but I have survived them all (so far).

Bryant Again · Nov 15, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Shame that minimalistic games don't provide more than a few hours of entertainment.

< Notice avatar, or this.

And WoW is much more complex than you seem to think it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

So far it sounds like all activity in GW2 will be exactly the same. Same classes, same skills, same quests, same everything - only the level will provide sense of progression.

Just like every EQ clone out there.

I meant in terms of how skills are used, i.e. simply using the Sword Strike attack will hit the enemy, but using the skill while crouching will damage and cripple them. Not to mention how much more involving movement will be with crouching, swimming, jumping, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

And if they don't do that, and prove otherwise, they'll be writing gaming history - literally - and re-inventing the online gaming genre by defining MMORPG 2.0.

They may've done that with Guild Wars. You never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

three's a crowd.

Of course there is, I'm not denying that. I'm saying that the whole PvE base is not that crowd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hey Bryant....That monk is a spy! The mesmer is a spy! ^^;

What, you mean the monk that's been healing me- OH SHI

Mordakai · Nov 15, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Hey Bryant....That monk is a spy! The mesmer is a spy! ^^;

anyway...it seems nobody did click the link i posted in the first page.

Lyra's solution to the pve/pvp skill problem:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10170019

I saw that, it's interesting.

Basically, you'd have two skill descriptions: A PvP one, and a PvE one. Fine by me.

Hailey Anne · Nov 15, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackhawk

So by essentially doubling the workload by making 2 games which would no doubt involve running some extra servers, you think they could still keep the same number of staff AND keep the game free to play? I highly doubt it, unless everyone at Anet works for free as well.

They wouldnt need more servers at all.
Its not like there would be alot more people playing the game because they split it. The same amount would play the skills would just be split into 2 different functions.

If(player = PvP) then
skill functionality = "Do this for PvP"
else
skill functionality = "Do this for PvE"

woudlnt be that difficult.

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 15, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Oh wait, you want him to do more than most PvE players

Of course I do, he's in charge of skill balance, he SHOULD be testing and playing with the skills he changes a lot more than the average player.

Age · Nov 15, 2007, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

No, not a chance in hell. You can only hope that they've learned their lesson and will design GW2 in such a way that Izzy can mangle PvP in any way he likes without affecting PvE.

That is the whole plan for GW2 but I can't se why they can't come out with 2 skill sets for PvP and PvE.They did this in a glitch with 2 of a few skills.There could be one set for PvP and PvE but with 2 different rulesets although it has been mentioned a few times before.They better hope they don't lose cutomers because of what is going on.

I don't beleive Izzy ever plays his account and is probably more of a PvPer than PvE.Izzy can get anything unlocked on his account including towns just like Gaile whose Ranger is still lvl07 and can be seen in Droks and THK.Devolopers and Puplishers hardly ever play their own games as they to busy making the games.Izzy plays another game as it was said on the board some where.

You tone down farming builds and guess what there won't be so much around farming and they will move on .

Sleeper Service · Nov 15, 2007, 09:50 PM // 21:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

That is the whole plan for GW2 (...)

Is that official and can you source it? I heard that too but i can't seem to pinpoint where.

Age · Nov 15, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I believe it is on their site somewhere possibly somewhere on these boards.

Dev121 · Nov 16, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

That is the whole plan for GW2 but I can't se why they can't come out with 2 skill sets for PvP and PvE.They did this in a glitch with 2 of a few skills.There could be one set for PvP and PvE but with 2 different rulesets although it has been mentioned a few times before.They better hope they don't lose cutomers because of what is going on.

I don't beleive Izzy ever plays his account and is probably more of a PvPer than PvE.Izzy can get anything unlocked on his account including towns just like Gaile whose Ranger is still lvl07 and can be seen in Droks and THK.Devolopers and Puplishers hardly ever play their own games as they to busy making the games.Izzy plays another game as it was said on the board some where.

You tone down farming builds and guess what there won't be so much around farming and they will move on .

Gaile got run by one of the old LBS guys if I remember correctly. (Maybe Rahja not sure)